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Hi all
Possibly a contraversial topic, but it's good to stimulate interesting discussion huh ;)
Was curious as to general opinion on whether there should be some kind of teaching 'qualification' for Flamenco (much like RAD for ballet).
I know that you cannot easily compare the two discplines as the ethos behind each are so different, and I'm not suggesting we all should conform to a 'syllabus' of material, but just as an easy example.
I've heard reports from dancers on various North American workshops, that even in 'advanced' level classes the technique (amongst fellow students) leaves much to be desired (eg poor/incorrect footwork). Not so much of a problem until you find out that some of these people are also promoting themselves as teachers/professionals.
In my very humble opinion, I think it is impossible to teach Flamenco effectively unless you have had experience of studying in Spain with decent teachers. Even to consider yourself a serious professional Flamenco dancer without ever having studied in Spain is pushing it quite a bit. There have also been tales told of sharing workshops in Spain with people that puport to be professional teachers/dancers who then find themselves so wholly unprepared for the level of technique expected of them that they are mortified/embarassed to be there.
I feel that we are very far removed from the 'source' of Flamenco therefore it is very easy for it to get dilluted and peddled as a 'lite' version of the real art form. Anyone that thinks Flamenco is 'easier' than ballet/modern/jazz etc ad infinitum have not experienced 'real Flamenco' ;)
I'm not talking traditional Flamenco versus modern/contemporary/nuevo Flamenco here, nor am I saying that it is not possible for someone from North America (or indeed anywhere other than Spain) to achieve the same level of brilliance as someone born and raised in Jerez.
It does concern me however, that some people could be making money from selling an inaccurate version of what the majority of the public assume to be 'authentic Flamenco'.
A 6 week course in Sevillanas does not a professional make. Also anyone selling a beginners course in 'Rhumba Flamenco' should be given a very wide berth indeed ;)
Anyone have any thoughts? Would be interested to hear your views.
R
Possibly a contraversial topic, but it's good to stimulate interesting discussion huh ;)
Was curious as to general opinion on whether there should be some kind of teaching 'qualification' for Flamenco (much like RAD for ballet).
I know that you cannot easily compare the two discplines as the ethos behind each are so different, and I'm not suggesting we all should conform to a 'syllabus' of material, but just as an easy example.
I've heard reports from dancers on various North American workshops, that even in 'advanced' level classes the technique (amongst fellow students) leaves much to be desired (eg poor/incorrect footwork). Not so much of a problem until you find out that some of these people are also promoting themselves as teachers/professionals.
In my very humble opinion, I think it is impossible to teach Flamenco effectively unless you have had experience of studying in Spain with decent teachers. Even to consider yourself a serious professional Flamenco dancer without ever having studied in Spain is pushing it quite a bit. There have also been tales told of sharing workshops in Spain with people that puport to be professional teachers/dancers who then find themselves so wholly unprepared for the level of technique expected of them that they are mortified/embarassed to be there.
I feel that we are very far removed from the 'source' of Flamenco therefore it is very easy for it to get dilluted and peddled as a 'lite' version of the real art form. Anyone that thinks Flamenco is 'easier' than ballet/modern/jazz etc ad infinitum have not experienced 'real Flamenco' ;)
I'm not talking traditional Flamenco versus modern/contemporary/nuevo Flamenco here, nor am I saying that it is not possible for someone from North America (or indeed anywhere other than Spain) to achieve the same level of brilliance as someone born and raised in Jerez.
It does concern me however, that some people could be making money from selling an inaccurate version of what the majority of the public assume to be 'authentic Flamenco'.
A 6 week course in Sevillanas does not a professional make. Also anyone selling a beginners course in 'Rhumba Flamenco' should be given a very wide berth indeed ;)
Anyone have any thoughts? Would be interested to hear your views.
R
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Unsu...
Re: Maintaining standards in North America
Tue, November 28, 2006 - 3:05 AMBumping this thread up because I'm asking myself the same questions.
I'm French, I've learnt flamenco for 3 years, had to stop because of a problem at my feet, but I hope to start again. I might move to the US, and I'm also asking myself questions about flamenco in the USA.
Here in France I've learnt from French teachers who learnt their knowledges in Spain. I've seen Spanish dancers shows, concerts of singers and guitarists from Andalusia, and the rest of Spain.
Lots of flamenco artists live in Belgium (yes, strange, I don't know why...) and Belgium is a few miles away from my city, which is close to the Belgian-French frontier, so they come pretty often here.
I also went to Jerez and Sevilla, Spain. I want to keep on having the connection with Spanish flamenco, is it possible in the US? -
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Re: Maintaining standards in North America
Tue, November 28, 2006 - 10:34 AMI can't speak for the USA but i do have a smll bit of knowledge when it comes to Canada.
I have learned from a Canadian teacher who was dance teacher of other forms.. She was a ballet teacher first so her approach to Flamenco was much like ballet. She studdied with many teachers, both in Spain and the USA. Here in Canada, and i assume in the USA we have many teachers that are from Europe too. Rosario Ancer & Oscar Nieto (Vancouver BC) and Teo Morca(used to be in Bellingham WA) to name a couple. And the last teacher i had was from Argentina.. She was the most fun of all. She had a very firey personality and was alot of fun to learn from. I think like every dance form i have tried it is good to have a sampling of different teachers, no matter where they are from. I have learned something from every teacher i has studied with. This includes my studies of other dance forms too. Each teacher is individual and brings something uniuqe to his/her class. I haven't studied flamenco for a couple of years and wish i could go back. But as it is right now i am not willing to travel the distance involved to go to classes. So right now i continue to study the various forms of Middle Eastern dance, or belly dance as it is more commonly known. Flamenco and MED compliment each other beautifully.. In fact i have worn my flamenco skirts to do various ME dances.
TTYS, KathleenA -
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Unsu...
Re: Maintaining standards in North America
Tue, November 28, 2006 - 10:56 AMYes, I agree with you about the fact that each teacher has a her own unique style and approach and that there is always something new to learn from them. It's true, and it's a good thing.
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Re: Maintaining standards in North America
Tue, November 28, 2006 - 12:35 PMI agree about studying with as many teachers as you can. That way you can also find out whose style of teaching works best for you.
But it is definetely harder to keep the Spain connection in North America. I've been studying for 7-8 years, based in Vancouver, but also travelling to nearby cities for workshops or to try their local teachers, and very rarely have been able to study with Spaniards. Though many of the teachers either spent many years in Spain at some point or study there regularly. Otherwise you have to wait for workshops to come to your town. But there are a lot of good teachers of all backgrounds. Oscar Nieto is actually American, Rosario Ancer is from Mexico, and Teo Morca's not Spanish either and they are all good dancers and teachers. My current teacher, Kasandra, is of Asian heritage but goes to Spain every year (I think) and has very good technique and teaching style.
But if you don't speak Spanish (or sometimes even if you do), it can be easier to learn from a local teacher who can explain things better, at least for the first few years.
I'm sure nothing beats studying in Spain though. Unfortunately, I still haven't made it there since I started studying. :-)
But I'm definitely looking forward to the next workshop..... This one is Cristina Hall, who is American (and very young), but has been living in Spain for the last 5 years or so, doing nothing but dancing (studying and performing). A great dancer, and I've heard she teaches well. Woohoo! I think my next solo will be seguiriyas. (yikes!)
Saludos a todos,
LoLa -
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Unsu...
Re: Maintaining standards in North America
Tue, November 28, 2006 - 2:21 PMThank you for your reply.
All the best for the next workshop, you'll do fine, I'm sure!
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Re: Maintaining standards in North America
Tue, November 28, 2006 - 5:37 PMI sure with somebody would come teach Flamenco in the Tri Cities. I can't be driving to Vancouver, from Pitt Meadows, at night. It would take way too long..
You many in fact know my former Flamenco teacher, Aida Hughesman. She studied with Rosario for many years.
I don't think it is necessary to go to France to study ballet nor to the middle east to study belly dance, or Raks Sharqi, as it is called there. Everyplace in the world has fantastic teachers. Flamenco and otherwise. Some of my favorite belly dance teachers right here in the Vancouver area are from Canada and the USA..
One day i'll go back to it.. My shoes are waiting!
TTYS, KathleenA
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Re: Maintaining standards in North America
Fri, December 8, 2006 - 11:44 AMI think that the minute that you try to standardize a fluid and continuously changing form of dance, you will end up restricting it. Flamenco teachers are all different, and - like LoLa states - just take as many classes with as many people as you can. I have been studying with Nieto for 2 years but, I also have 15 years of classical ballet training. I have taken many many forms of dance from modern to Irish to African. Standardizing is perhaps only possible in the land of footwork. However, I still think that there isn't much reason for this. Why do we need standardizing? I would think that it would be more for the dancer him/herself - so that this dancer can feel that they are Beginner, Intermediate or Advanced? I think each teacher, no matter what "level" they are teaching may or may not work for you. I have taken beginner classes with one teacher and totally struggled and then taken intermediate with another and excelled. I think you should just take classes as much as you can and learn what you can from that individual. Each will bring their own style and essence and this is what you can experience and perhaps grow from. I have only been doing this for a couple of years, however - am OBSESSED as we say. I have read book after book and seen movie after movie and taken as many classes as I can. I too am looking forward to working to the upcoming workshop here in Vancouver. Who knows, maybe I will be in above my head (which really is just a frame of mind) or, maybe I will love it and take what I can. This, to me, is the way it works.
Historically, North America has had an overwhelming influence on Spain flamenco wise. I had a long conversation with Oscar Nieto about this. Of course, the Spaniards are hesitant to admit this, but - there are numerous examples, particularly from the 70's where a particular style or "new thing" was done and then the Spanish did it after it "came back" to Spain. The original flamencos who worked in North America often don't get as much credit as the so called "authentic" flamencos of Spain. I honestly, feel that due to the travelling nature of the dance itself - one should be careful not to doubt the influence and authenticity of North American flamenco (if you want to call it that).
Ah..the conversation continues.
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Re: Maintaining standards in North America
Tue, December 5, 2006 - 7:02 AMI've been lucky enough to have teachers who are either from Spain or study there extensively, including one who studied with Carmen Amaya. With that said, I still feel insecure about my flamenco sometimes, especially in workshops with Spanish dancers. It just seems like I could be learning so much more if I could spend some time in Spain. I think there's a lot to be said for getting instruction straight from the horse's mouth.
As far as shady teachers, I haven't come across any. I did take one workshop with a woman who seemed awfully worried about the money, but she was a good teacher and her technique and style was flawless. I learned a lot from her, so I can't fault her, although it did kinda irk me that she wanted to charge $90 for a VHS copy of the class, even after you paid to take the class! And she was from Jerez!
I don't think there can or should be a teaching qualification for Flamenco, since every single person's style is different. I think the local communities just need to watch out for themselves and get out the word if someone is trying to take advantage of people by "selling" inauthentic Flamenco to students.
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Re: Maintaining standards in North America
Thu, January 4, 2007 - 1:58 PMI've been taking Flamenco for a couple years in Nashville. I've had the opportunity to have been learning from a teacher who teaches the Spanish Dance Society Flamenco Syllabus (www.spanishdancesociety.org/). My exposure to Flamenco has been limited but I'm grateful for the methodical approach that the syllabus offers. I haven't been taught Flamenco any other way, so I can't really compare. Is anybody in here a member or heard of it?
I've been studying Middle Eastern Dance (bellydance) for longer and haven't been through a certification program yet, so maybe I can offer perspective from that point of view. There are new certification programs popping up all over the place, and I see both the good and bad. So many people learn how to shimmy and call themselves bellydancers (and even teachers!) so it's nice to see people that have more knowledge put out strict programs out there that challenge even the most experienced dancers. But bellydance is so expansive since it comes from so many countries and is currently undergoing fusion explosion, I don't think you could ever really call yourself a certified bellydance teacher, but maybe a teacher certified in Jane Doe's bellydance technique?.... or certified in Jane Doe's Flamenco technique, as it would be in this case... :-)
